Wesley Wyndham-Pryce ([info]wyndham__pryce) wrote,
@ 2003-10-27 23:08:00
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Current mood: accomplished
Current music:Holst, "Venus, Bringer of Peace" (Boult/LPO)

A Brief Inquiry.
Well. I will certainly admit that my previous attempt to steer us back on track didn't seem to have the desired effect. However, I will admit some fascination with what appears to be a growing coalition to defend Spike against the barest slight to his character. I don't particularly have time to engage in a long dialogue about this subject, but I would be remiss as a one-time Watcher if I did not take a few moments of my time to address a few salient points.

For the record, Angel's time as a killer encompassed a good thirty or forty more years than Spike's, it's true. However, we must also take into account their various modus operandi. Spike has always been an indiscriminate killer, revelling in the fun of it, taking whatever victims were unlucky enough to stumble across his path. Angelus, on the other hand, was obsessed with pageantry. While he certainly had no qualms about killing to feed, he very rarely found an appeal in murder for his own sake. What he delighted in, above all else, was cruelty. He would pick a victim and reduce him or her to a quivering, senseless mass of despair before making their end. This would be a more time-consuming process than Spike's methods, so actually, it's not unreasonable to assume that Spike's kill ratio is actually greater than Angel's, despite the chronological advantage the latter has.

But, of course, that's neither here nor there. What, I think, holds a bit more water at this point, is that with few exceptions, Angel's kills all took place in the dead past. The vast majority of the people who suffered loss as a result of his ministrations are now long departed. Spike, however, has been killing steadily for the past hundred years, right up until he was apparently neutralized somehow around the turn of the century (I'm a little unclear on the details). So there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of people still very much alive and currently feeling the anguish and emptiness that comes from having people removed from their lives; mothers, fathers, brothers, daughters, &c. What do you suppose the reaction of these people would be if they learned that the murderer of their loved ones was not only walking around free, but the benefactor of a multi-million dollar company that was pouring large sums of money into re-granting him the ability to affect the tactile world again? I daresay even Mr. Abrams would be hard pressed to explain that one.

So Spike came to the decision to re-ensoul himself on his own. Bravo. The fact remains, however, that he did not do it for the betterment of mankind, but rather for purely selfish motives; he wanted the girl. Angel, admittedly, had no such desire when soulless, but upon being cursed, he was forced to live with the guilt for what he did for a hundred years. Shortly after that, he spent an interdeterminate time in what has only been referred to as hell.

The bottom line is, Angel's paid for what he's done. Spike hasn't even begun to do so, and shows no interest in doing so. Now apparently he has made some grand sacrifice to save the world; whether that was an intentional offering up of himself or something that happened inadvertently is up for debate. Speaking for myself, I can say I've observed little behavior on his part since his arrival that has concerned anything other than his own self-preservation (the meritorious act of saving Fred aside). Angel, however, has spent the better part of a decade opposing forces of every kind and power level in order to protect a world that refuses to acknowledge his existence.

And as for the allegations of sexual assault mentioned by several people, while I have no knowledge of the incident in question, it would certainly not be the first, or even the twentieth, time that it was reported in William the Bloody engaging in such an activity. There are even reports of girls as young as fifteen--well, I'll spare you the details. But again, it's nothing that Angel hasn't perpetrated himself to some degree. The difference remains that there have been consequences for Angel's actions, and he's realized the weight of them and made a determination to right the cosmic scale. I've seen no such efforts on Spike's part.

Now, figuring out the difference between Angel and Spike is child's play. What poses a thornier question is this flock of supporters that William the Bloody appears to have amassed out of whole cloth. It's certainly not without precedent; serial killers from Theo Durrant to Ted Bundy have attracted scores of female admirers. A psychologist with far more insight than I would no doubt be able to elucidate the reasons for why so many women are drawn to men with violent, psychopathic tendencies; what's patently obvious is that these women have latched on to something that exists only in their mind. As they will never meet Spike, he's a safe fantasy figure for them to project their own desires on, without having to contend with the day-to-day realities that comes with living alongside your average mass murderer. While they go to great lengths to lavish such affection on him, what they don't realize is that they're actually doing him a disservice by blindly forgiving him all his transgressions. If they really want him to be as good a man as they proclaim him to be, they'd hold him accountable for his misdeeds instead of blindly waving them away. As it is, one has to wonder if Spike would retain such a groundswell of support if he were a bespectacled middle-aged man with a pot belly and male pattern baldness. I'm a bit skeptical of it.




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[info]strawberyslayer
2003-10-27 08:44 pm UTC (link)
You choose some good music to listen to. Coincidentally, I'm listening to Holst's "Mars: the Bringer of War." Go me and my violent, yet classical streak. And my affination to French horns.

Anyway.

You think us women have crushes on Spike because of the old "want what you can't have" story? Eh, in my case, s'pose that's part of it. I think for me, it's just the Englishmen. ;)

As they will never meet Spike, he's a safe fantasy figure for them to project their own desires on, without having to contend with the day-to-day realities that comes with living alongside your average mass murderer.
And how many of us could so easily be living alongside a murderer now? When Spike starts offing the LA branch of W&H, then we'll talk. Besides, it wouldn't be exactly ladylike of me to bring up your past indiscretions with members of the opposite sex, would it? Examples of times when you conveniently and "blindly forgiving" them all their transgressions.

Yes, I realize, not exactly the same thing. Still. Pot's calling the kettle black, and one shouldn't point fingers, luv.


-H

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]wyndham__pryce
2003-10-27 08:57 pm UTC (link)
So, let me get this straight. Exactly how many more people does Spike need to kill before he's classified as a murderer, according to you? And simply because one might be living in close proximity to a potential killer, that makes it harmless to fetishize a known one? I'm sorry, but I'm having a deuce of a time following your logic.

And as to the insinuations about my past, I'm afraid I have no idea what you are referring to.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]strawberyslayer, 2003-10-27 09:12 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]wyndham__pryce, 2003-10-27 09:21 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]strawberyslayer, 2003-10-27 09:34 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]violetofthehat, 2003-10-27 09:45 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]strawberyslayer, 2003-10-27 09:49 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]lily_anne, 2003-10-28 09:47 am UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-27 09:44 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]strawberyslayer, 2003-10-27 09:48 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]_champion_, 2003-10-27 09:55 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]strawberyslayer, 2003-10-27 10:01 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]_champion_, 2003-10-27 10:32 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-27 10:15 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]wyndham__pryce, 2003-10-27 10:41 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]celtic_queen, 2003-10-27 10:44 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]powerof3, 2003-10-27 10:49 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]_champion_, 2003-10-28 07:15 am UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]powerof3, 2003-10-28 11:45 am UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]recognitions, 2003-10-28 07:40 am UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]powerof3, 2003-10-28 11:46 am UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]recognitions, 2003-10-28 11:57 am UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]airawyn, 2003-10-28 02:24 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-27 11:52 pm UTC
Re: Exactly 137 and one half more people...right. - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-28 12:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wyndham__pryce, 2003-10-28 10:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-28 12:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]clemtastic, 2003-10-28 04:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-29 12:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]immortallove, 2003-10-29 07:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cbrownjc, 2003-10-27 11:46 pm UTC

[info]cbrownjc
2003-10-27 11:36 pm UTC (link)
Now, figuring out the difference between Angel and Spike is child's play. What poses a thornier question is this flock of supporters that William the Bloody appears to have amassed out of whole cloth. It's certainly not without precedent; serial killers from Theo Durrant to Ted Bundy have attracted scores of female admirers [. . . . .] While they go to great lengths to lavish such affection on him, what they don't realize is that they're actually doing him a disservice by blindly forgiving him all his transgressions.

::sarcasm:: Why not? Some did it with Angel after his little revert-to-Angelus killing spree in Sunnydale a few years back. ::/sarcasm::

::throws up hands::

You know, I really didn't want to get involved in another "who's the better vamp" argument because they're stupid and rather pointless, but I just couldn't let this comment pass:

Yes Wes, there are some people out there who are ready to ignore everything in Spike's past, blah, blah, blah. But to say it's all just based on his looks is an argument that always sticks in my craw because it's actually rather sexist. I'm not denying such things happen, but to say that's all there is to it is sexist. That some of us women who like Spike, and defend him, (or even those who ignore his past, though I'm not one of them), only do so because we're attracted to him, and have no thoughts about him past his looks.

Sorry, but no. If that was the case, all this rampent fan girlishness would have started a long time ago. Like, from the time he first showed up in Sunnydale.

No. This whole thing started when, at a certain point, some people saw him start to try and be a better person than he was. Whether it was for selfish reasons, or Buffy-motivated, wasn't the point. The point is, he tries, he fu*%ed up, yet still keeps on trying. And even now, he still is.

And this is what pisses a lot of people (ie, Spike fangirls) off in discussions such as this: never once does almost anyone seem to think he can be anything better that what he was. And a double standard he always seems to get held to.

Even now, with a soul, Angel routinely gets away with a lot more shite than Spike ever could. (Like locking 15 lawyers in a wine cellar with two psycho vamps for starters.) Yeah, yeah, Angel has his soul for a lot longer and has been atoning for his past crimes for longer -- by a couple of years. (Sorry, I'm not nocking on Angel and you can argue it all you want to, but he spent the time from roughly 1898 to the 1970s pretty much wandering around feeling sorry for himself, spent roughly the next 20 years after that eating rats in the gutter, before he became even the least bit pro-active about it.) That's not the point. The point is the double standard that a lot of people see happening every time a discussion like this comes up:

"Spike? Oh please. He'll never any different."
"Who cares why Spike got a soul, it probably wasn't for the noblest of reasons anyway."
"Spike did horribly evil stuff not too long ago . . . why should he be any different now?"

Whereas Angel could lose his soul, go on a killing spree, get his soul back, and no one would ever damn him for it. Not really.

Not to knock you Wes, but I'm actually not surprise you would have this kind of attitude, give how you first reacted to Faith when she tried to change and become a better person. You know, that whole, "That girl is a killer . . . she'll kill again" stuff. You turned out to be wrong about that through, right?

Anyway, I just wanted you to try and understand the place a lot of Spike-defenders are coming from. Expecially when some things seem to come off as: "Well, Spike hasn't been helping on the side of good for that long anyway, why should we help him with his problem again?" kind of stuff.

It's all really a classic case of rooting for the underdog. . . . .

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[info]_champion_
2003-10-28 06:58 am UTC (link)
he spent the time from roughly 1898 to the 1970s pretty much wandering around feeling sorry for himself, spent roughly the next 20 years after that eating rats in the gutter, before he became even the least bit pro-active about it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're overgeneralizing just a bit there, wouldn't you say? Don't let's forget about the Boxer Rebellion, 1900. Can't say I was moping around feeling sorry for myself then, can you? I tried to be what Darla wanted me to be, but it didn't work out.

Or Los Angeles, 1952. I was all about trying to help the residents of the Hyperion, until they, you know, hung me.

And saying I ate rats for twenty years, well, that's just excessive. It was more like three. Or maybe five. I sorta lost track.

You say you're not overlooking Spike's history. Give mine a fair look while you're at it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-28 07:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]_champion_, 2003-10-28 08:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cbrownjc, 2003-10-28 11:44 am UTC

[info]wyndham__pryce
2003-10-29 09:44 am UTC (link)
It's just that you very rarely see this kind of support on the side of humans for vampires of any kind, even souled ones. Even Angel, who, to reiterate, has been actively doing good for the better part of a decade now, has hardly amassed this kind of groundswell. One has to wonder as to the reasons.

You make a sound case for his persistence; even I've seen evidence of that. But being determined is certainly no guarantee of good intentions; a strong will can be utilized to wreak havoc just as effectively.

And as for Faith, I disagree with your characterization. My initial reacting to Faith's reemergence was a hope that we could find a way to reach her, and possibly correct some of the wrongs that had been done (a statistic I include some of my own behaviors in, of course). After being tortured, my perspective shifted somewhat, as I think you can understand. But even then, I was ultimately forced to admit that Angel's approach was the correct one, as Faith's decision to turn herself in bore out.

Now, as I've said before, I'm certainly not unwilling to accede that Spike may prove himself in a similar fashion. However, I think it's naive to grant him the benefit of the doubt based simply on his choice to regain his soul. As we all know, a souled person is just as capable of evil as a demon, if not more so, and I've seen evidence that points to Spike going in both directions. Naturally, I hope for the best, but as he is connected, however inexplicably, with myself and those who I fight alongside, I think it's understantable if I take a wait-and-see attitude.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Now I'm not a Spike "fangirl" but...
[info]miserychick1138
2003-10-27 11:47 pm UTC (link)
I have something of a pet theory that I've been kicking around as to why Angel spent several decades suffering all manner of torment after being re-souled, while Spike just spent the summer going stark raving mad.

Now while I don't have a firm understanding of the mechanics of a gypsy soul curse, it seems to me that it served two purposes. A: to restore Angelus' soul, and B: to cause him unending misery by forcing him to remember his crimes over and over again. He couldnt get out of the cycle without something to focus on, like helping Buffy.

Now Spike just had his soul restored, without a curse, so while the initial shock caused his insanity (and no doubt the First Evil didnt make things easier) eventually he was able to "tune out" the memories, as he didnt have a curse forcing him to relive his crimes. (Not that he doesnt feel remorse for what he's done. I'd wager that in the long dark hours, he suffers in his own way, but it's not in his personality to let anyone know.)

But feel free to correct me on any of that.

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Re: Now I'm not a Spike "fangirl" but...
[info]luvs_phoenix
2003-10-28 10:50 am UTC (link)
Hey! Great theory. Love it. Embrace is. Will take it as my own with credit to you of course.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Now I'm not a Spike "fangirl" but...
[info]cbrownjc
2003-10-28 12:10 pm UTC (link)
Good theory. (Seen it before in a few other places in fact). I'm also inclined to think that Buffy finally telling him to get off his butt and "show her" that he has a soul, and had changed, might have had something to do with it as well. (Otherwise, I think he might have spent the whole year, and who knows how long after, in his same insane-o state.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]immortallove
2003-10-28 01:53 am UTC (link)
Hmm.. A Spike vs. Angel debate. Think I'll add my two cents, if no one minds :)

First of all - I like BOTH of them. So this is not bashing - of anyone.

That said... Yep, Spike was evil. Hello, VAMPIRE? And Angel was evil, too. Most of you have met Angelus, yes? Believe me, if the both were unsouled, I'd much rather be locked in a room with Spike than Angel, because Angel would undoubtly indulge in a spot of torture, while Spike would probably indulge in a conversation. Spike, back in the day, may or may not have killed more people - but at least he didn't torture them for months before doing so.
Now, on to the souled versions of both. Spike hasn't killed anyone while souled. I'm pretty sure I recall a fully-souled Angel locking a bunch of lawyers in a cellar with two psychotic vamps.

And now, my final point. If a cat kills a mouse and eats it, do we condemn the cat? Or if a lion kills and eats an antelope, so we condemn the lion? No, they're doing what's natural. Well guess what - human is the vampires' natural food source. It's not murder, it's called survival. Why do we all feel that humans are exempt from the natural food chain?

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[info]soulvamp
2003-10-28 04:11 am UTC (link)
I was bloody well not goin' to say anything in this conversation, but when I see oversights...

Spike hasn't killed anyone while souled.

I did, though. Might've been being used as the First's puppet at the time, but I did. Not proud of it.

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(no subject) - [info]immortallove, 2003-10-29 07:36 pm UTC

[info]_champion_
2003-10-28 07:02 am UTC (link)
Angel would undoubtly indulge in a spot of torture, while Spike would probably indulge in a conversation.

You wouldn't be worth torturing. As for Spike, he'd probably shove a railroad spike into your head, or other places. How do you think he got his nickname?

As much as I regret it, I still trained Spike in the art of cruelty. It seems to have worn off over the years, but it's still there.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]immortallove, 2003-10-29 07:35 pm UTC

[info]sparky8me2
2003-10-28 03:10 am UTC (link)
Holy cow, you say a few bad-yet-true things about Spike and there are throngs lining up to leap to his defence. Careful, Wesley, or you'll bring a whole mob of screaming fangirls down on your head, howling for blood.

Angel's done some pretty lousy things himself lately, though, even with the soul- Hope you have a speedy recovery, Parker. I suppose it can be attributed to stress, what with having Spike harrassing him a lot (even though it's amusing) and all. Actually, I'm surprised no one's used that in their argument- Spike goes and saves Fred's life, and a few days later, Angel beats the tar out of Parker for something he did four years ago.

Might want to keep an eye on that. Wouldn't that give the Senior Partner's a laugh- if Angel went all dark (again) while at the helm of the LA Branch.

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[info]_champion_
2003-10-28 07:12 am UTC (link)
Wouldn't that give the Senior Partner's a laugh- if Angel went all dark (again) while at the helm of the LA Branch.

Heh. Funny you should mention that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]wyndham__pryce, 2003-10-28 10:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparky8me2, 2003-10-28 11:40 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2003-10-28 04:39 am UTC (link)
Oy. This has turned into a right fine mess.

It's okay, Wes -- I understand what you're trying to say.

-A

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[info]ladydewinter
2003-10-28 07:47 am UTC (link)
As it is, one has to wonder if Spike would retain such a groundswell of support if he were a bespectacled middle-aged man with a pot belly and male pattern baldness. I'm a bit skeptical of it.

Good point. Actually, a very good point.

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(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-28 08:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]_champion_, 2003-10-28 08:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-28 08:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xrupertgilesx, 2003-10-28 10:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-28 10:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]recognitions, 2003-10-28 11:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gorthead, 2003-10-28 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xrupertgilesx, 2003-10-28 01:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2003-11-12 07:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xrupertgilesx, 2003-11-12 07:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2003-11-12 07:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2003-11-12 08:36 pm UTC
A brief inquiry
(Anonymous)
2003-10-28 09:35 am UTC (link)
Soooo not going to get into the vs. thing, but Spike points to consider:

1. Got the soul because he wanted the girl. You're right, it's sad she inspired that much in him.

2. Abandon them all to die in the Hellmouth, or die to save as many as possible. Yep, made the wrong, self-centered decision.

3. Become corporeal, with one shot at making it work, or save the girl. Oh, hell, the me-first, self-centered decision again.

Sarcasm much. May not pay for it all, but big steps just the same.

(Reply to this)


[info]gorthead
2003-10-28 06:04 pm UTC (link)
*sigh* I, of course, have a few opinions. I'll just go back to the original post and directly respond to some quotes from there so as not to barge in halfway through an already-formed argument.

Spike has always been an indiscriminate killer...What[Angelus] delighted in, above all else, was cruelty...Spike's kill ratio is actually greater than Angel's
But, wouldn't it be better, in your opinion, to just die quickly rather than be tortured and made nearly insane before dying? Just because Spike killed more people doesn't necessarily mean he was crueler, just that more people died at his hands. Which, if we're speaking in terms of the law, is worse, but the law doesn't seem to apply to soulless vampires.

there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of people still very much alive and currently feeling the anguish and emptiness that comes from having people removed from their lives...
And I'm sure there were hundreds/thousands of people who were alive 150-odd years ago who felt that same anguish and emptiness. Just because the people Spike affected are still alive and the people Angel affected are dead shouldn't make a difference; that is completely unfair. They made people suffer equally, the time period shouldn't make any difference.

What do you suppose the reaction of these people would be if they learned that the murderer of their loved ones was not only walking around free, but the benefactor of a multi-million dollar company...
Now that sounds like you're just concerned about the success of your company.

he was forced to live with the guilt for what he did for a hundred years
I don't understand how this makes Angel a better person. Because something was forced upon him, and he had no choice but to deal with it, this makes him heroic? Angel was cursed, Spike just got his soul back. What Angel had to, and is having to go through is worse than what I think Spike did upon receiving his soul again. It's not Spike's fault that he wasn't cursed like Angel was and therefore didn't have to go through as much suffering.

Angel's paid for what he's done. Spike hasn't even begun to do so
By 'paying for what he's done', I'm assuming you mean that he's done good and helped people, etc., right? Well, how I see it is, Angel's done most of his good because he felt obligated to, to atone for his past, and he wouldn't be doing as much if he weren't feeling guilty about it. Spike did good for Buffy, and later, even after her death, he continued doing good. Now, I can't get into either Angel or Spike's head, so either of you has permission to tell me I'm completely off on either of these points. But, the way I see it, both did good for at least partially selfish reasons (Angel to alleviate guilt, Spike to prove himself to Buffy).

I can say I've observed little behavior on his part since his arrival that has concerned anything other than his own self-preservation (the meritorious act of saving Fred aside).
And who were you accusing of skimming over important points?

As for the attempted rape, I could write a 10-page paper on it, but I'll condense my thoughts into something very simple. Spike did not have a soul at the time of the incident. Sexual assault and the like is expected behavior from an unsouled vampire, a demon. I'm not saying that it is fine, it's still a horrible thing, but not unexpected considering the things that vampires have been known to do. And then the demon just continues on its merry way. But Spike felt guilt, which demons aren't "supposed" to feel. And he got himself a soul, which, to my knowledge, is totally unprecedented. Now, I'm aware that what Spike did was wrong, but I think people are seeing it as 'WRONG!' in big, red neon letters with flashing arrows pointing to it, and as much worse than anything similar that Angelus might have done, only because it was Buffy, someone they knew and cared about.

(cont.)

(Reply to this)


[info]gorthead
2003-10-28 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Anyway, to comment on your last paragraph, if we go by your standards for calling someone a mass murderer, then surely Angel is one, too. And you are supporting Angel. So how does this make people who are supporting Spike any worse? I don't think I'm totally disregarding all the wrongs Spike has done. He's done completely horrible things, and shouldn't just get off scot-free, and he hasn't. And neither should Angel, and he hasn't either. I certainly don't think that either Spike nor Angel deserves to go to Hell, but I think that because you've only been getting the Angel's-eye-view of Spike you're automatically going to be against him. Angel said in his own journal (I think, it may just as easily have been in one of these threads) that he wants Spike to go to Hell just because he doesn't like him, because he annoys him. That's completely unfair; everyone's going to have people who hate them and who love them, we're always going to have opinions on everyone, it's just human nature, but I hardly think that just because you hate someone they should suffer eternal torment.

If anyone has any problems with anything I've said, feel free to reply. I've tried to be intelligent about this and bring in facts, but I may well be looking over something or have been mistaken about something.

-Stephanie

(Reply to this)(Thread)

RE: gorthead - (Anonymous), 2003-10-29 05:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wyndham__pryce, 2003-10-29 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2003-10-30 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wyndham__pryce, 2003-10-30 07:47 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2003-11-08 11:58 pm UTC
*Le Sigh*
(Anonymous)
2003-10-29 06:26 pm UTC (link)
Wesley: You are right *not completely, but you have valid points* Spike did do alot of damage, He will never be able to bring those lives back, but don't forget that he has been Helping Buffy and the Scoobies since 1999/2000, before he was even ensouled *albeit they were giving him blood, but at least he was on our side, right?*

Spike's Defenders: You are right, Spike is good now, and is trying to help out the LA gang as much as he can non corporeal. But before that chip, he would have been willing to nibble on any one of us, given the chance. And Yes, he did fight to get re-ensouled, and that's an effort not to be ignored.

Angel: I know that you are trying to do as much good as humanly (or vampirely) possible, and we recognize your efforts, and they DO make a big deal. We love you for who you are, not the creature inside. You ARE good, and if given the situation, I know you would save me in a... err Heartbeat :/

Spike: Yes I could be considered a *fangirl* but not a teenybopping one,(if one more person says roflmfao to me, I will snap!) I know what you have done, and tried to do, and are still doing. You might have been a demon before, and I still realize that the demon is inside of you, but we love you because of the fact that you helped the Scoobies, even without a soul. And that deserves to be known.

I may not be an important part of your intwined livejournals, or even someone that all of you know. but this thread hurt me alot, because Both Angel and Spike are fighting, fighting every day (err, Night) for the greater good, and that fighting over who is better, or who is *eviller* is childish, and is putting another block between Angel and Spike ever reaching a point where they are content. Please think about this before posting another comment.

Thankyou
-Ren
the anonymous poster

(Reply to this)(Thread)

umm..P.S - (Anonymous), 2003-10-29 06:33 pm UTC
Re: *Le Sigh* - [info]kajivar, 2003-10-29 07:41 pm UTC
hehehe - (Anonymous), 2003-10-30 06:57 pm UTC
senior partners
(Anonymous)
2003-11-07 06:13 pm UTC (link)
What's a senior partner? I'm still trying to find out after five years. Senior mean "lord" right? And partner mean "someone working with you". I think I have my theory (theory...lame...I study physic to become a physicist just like Fred. She's so fascinating!I wish we could be friends her and me.)Well, who's the lord of hell? The devil. And the demons work with the devil, so they are his partners. So, the senior partners can be closest partners of the devil. After all Wolfram & Heart is representing the most evil in the world. But maybe i'm completely wrong. So tell me Wes, what's a senior partner? 'cause after five years, I think an ex-watcher can tell me.
The shy girl in love with Lorne. *blush*

(Reply to this)

Rebuttal
[info]destinyschilde
2003-12-08 01:55 pm UTC (link)
An interesting essay. :) I do have a few comments to make upon your assumptions though. Also, it seems I will have to break this up into several posts, due to LJs insistence. :)

"This would be a more time-consuming process than Spike's methods, so actually, it's not unreasonable to assume that Spike's kill ratio is actually greater than Angel's, despite the chronological advantage the latter has."

It seems illogical to me to assume that Spike has a higher kill ratio than Angel. Based upon the information available to us (re: His own family, the entire town he previously lived in, Drucilla, her family, the mass murder of the nuns in the convent, Jenny, the intent to kill Buffys friends, her mom) while in the pursuit of torturing the person he had set his sights on, Angelus also targeted thier friends and family. Anyone that mattered to them. So while it was a 'time-consuming process', he was killing all those that surrounded them, in addition, one must assume, to the daily hunts for regular 'food'.
This in no way detracts from the fact that Spike was also a killer, BUT when he set his sites on a particular person to kill, it usually involved just that person. Not everyone surrounding them. If the Scooby gang had no connection to the Slayer, then they never would have been on his 'hit list'. That's not to say that if he had run across them in an alley, and he was hungry or bored, that he wouldn't have snacked on them just because the opportunity was there. It just says that Spike was single minded when it came to the person he was specifically looking for.
So again..while Spike participated in indiscrimenant killings, I don't see where it could be assumed that his kill ratio should be higher than Angels.

"Angel's kills all took place in the dead past. The vast majority of the people who suffered loss as a result of his ministrations are now long departed. Spike, however, has been killing steadily for the past hundred years, right up until he was apparently neutralized somehow around the turn of the century (I'm a little unclear on the details). So there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of people still very much alive and currently feeling the anguish and emptiness that comes from having people removed from their lives; mothers, fathers, brothers, daughters, &c. What do you suppose the reaction of these people would be if they learned that the murderer of their loved ones was not only walking around free, but the benefactor of a multi-million dollar company that was pouring large sums of money into re-granting him the ability to affect the tactile world again?"

Probably the same reaction as we saw from Holtz. Uncaring that the vampire that visited such emotional pain upon them was now souled and doing good in the world. The survivors of the victims would just be interested in justice or revenge.
Regardless of whether the pain happened centuries ago, or just last year, time does not, as often stated, heal all wounds.
Hence why we still have racism, bigotry, religious confrontations, etc...
So while most of Angels kills took place in the past (but let us not forget the people that he killed when he lost his soul in Sunnydale, nor just last year when he lost his soul again)...there are/were people walking this earth recently that were affected by his past crimes still. So Spike is not alone in that.

To be continued...

(Reply to this)

Rebuttal
[info]destinyschilde
2003-12-08 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Part 2

"So Spike came to the decision to re-ensoul himself on his own. Bravo. The fact remains, however, that he did not do it for the betterment of mankind, but rather for purely selfish motives; he wanted the girl."
I fail to see what the arguement is here, tho I will disagree from a purely personal view: I don't believe Spike won his soul specifically to GET the girl..but because he HURT the girl. Something that he had stated he would never do. It was a personal belief of his that because he loved Buffy, he would never do anything to hurt her. His view of 'hurt' being somewhat biased due to his own personal view point as a vampire.
With the event of the assult on Buffy, he was forced to come to terms that he did indeed 'hurt the girl'. With the realization that he was capable of such a thing was the turning point. The fact that he felt guilt, remorse, over the thing even happening was the catalyst that spurred him to get the soul. He's a vampire. As such, it's "kill the slayer, drain the slayer". There should be no remorse or guilt. The resulting confusion from that led him to seek out his soul. He had to make a decision. Be a vampire...or be a man. He thought he could be both without a soul. The AR brought it home to him that he could not. Mistakenly I believe, since even souled beings are capable of such horrific crimes, but in his own mind, a soul would make him the 'kind of man that would never...' He wanted to give Buffy what she deserved. A person she could trust and believe in, and in her view point, you had to have a soul for that to happen. He went seeking his soul, to 'fix' himself. To pick one side or the other, since it was obvious to him that he couldn't be both, monster and man. Buffy was the source of the event, but the decision was his own.
And in truth, what matters the reason 'why' he did it? The fact that an assumed 'evil thing' went against his very NATURE and sought out something that is supposed to be repellent in the extreme to those of his ilk, and won his soul is something for another talk. :)

"Angel, admittedly, had no such desire when soulless, but upon being cursed, he was forced to live with the guilt for what he did for a hundred years. "
Exactly my point. Souless, Angelus could care less. He has no 'confusion' about what/who he is. He is a killer and makes no bones about it, and refutes anything that would make him 'human'. He has no 'humanity' within him that blurs his understanding of what he is. He has no capability to love...anyone or anything. And that is what makes him different from Spike.
Angel lived with his guilt for 100 years because he had no one to help him. I grant you that. Spike was very lucky. He had Buffy to pull him out of the basement. He had her help to come to terms with what he did. That in itself is a big advantage over what Angel had. I have to state tho, that it is not Spikes fault that Angel didn't have anyone. Well...except Darla and we all know how she felt about the soul.
I will point out here that while Angel wallowed in guilt for 100 years, that it was because of 'the girl' that he also set foot on the road to becamming a champion. When Whistler first found him, he was homeless, filty, living off of rats in an alley. It wasn't until Whistler took him to see Buffy standing on the steps of the high school, that Angel finally found purpose for his life and decided to fight on the side of good. He wanted to help her. He fell in love with her at first sight. So while yes...Spike did good 'for the girl'...the same is true for Angel.
Angel has a few years on Spike. He's already BEEN down the road that Spike has only begun to travel, and like a rebellious teen and his parents, Spike will not learn from Angel's mistakes...he will not 'listen' to the lessons already learned by someone who has already been through what he is going through. He will have to learn them on his own.

to be continued.....

Destiny

(Reply to this)

rebuttal
[info]destinyschilde
2003-12-08 02:01 pm UTC (link)
part 3

"The bottom line is, Angel's paid for what he's done. "
And in this, you are completely mistaken. There are no scales for what both Angel and Spike have done. Unless there is someway for thier entire memories to be erased, they will eternally live with the guilt of the things they have done, and not feel 'forgiven' in thier own minds.
What they both have done is realize that they DID do wrong...and are now on the other side trying to do right. Fighting to make 'some' kind of restitution.

"Spike hasn't even begun to do so, and shows no interest in doing so. Now apparently he has made some grand sacrifice to save the world; whether that was an intentional offering up of himself or something that happened inadvertently is up for debate. Speaking for myself, I can say I've observed little behavior on his part since his arrival that has concerned anything other than his own self-preservation (the meritorious act of saving Fred aside). Angel, however, has spent the better part of a decade opposing forces of every kind and power level in order to protect a world that refuses to acknowledge his existence."

My previous comments have some bearing on what you stated here. However, it seems that you yourself are perpetuating on Spike what you accuse others of doing to Angel. Refusing to acknowledge that Spike did indeed perhaps save the world for purely unselfish reasons. Apparently he is guilty until proven innocent.
Also, while Angel is now very forthcoming to you about why he does good, and you have a view of observation of where he is 'coming from', you must admit that it took *time* to get where you are with Angel. To develop that relationship where you are able to see the man within the monster. Angel is not, as observed, an open book. He is private, and doesn't like to involve people in his life easily. So may I suggest that you also apply that same consideration to Spike? How long did it take you to become Angels friend? To get him to open up to you, or for you to open up to him? Please allow the same consideration to Spike. You met Angel back when he was in Sunnydale, and yet, even knowing he was a souled vampire, you set upon him with other WC representatives whilst trying to retrieve Faith. At that time, you had no trust in him. It took coming to LA, working with him, to get you to really know the man. The same will hold true in the case of Spike.

"The difference remains that there have been consequences for Angel's actions, and he's realized the weight of them and made a determination to right the cosmic scale. I've seen no such efforts on Spike's part."
As you were not privy to the goings on in Sunnydale at the time of Spike's sacrifice, I don't see that you have a solid basis for this type of judgement. The fact that you have not 'seen' efforts on Spikes part, well, perhaps you should try looking harder. Actually spend time talking to him. Get past his distrustfulness of his current surroundings. You may find that Spike's apparent 'lack of effort' to show you his intent is directly related to Angel and the feelings that are all wrapped up in that long relationship.

to be continued....

Destiny

(Reply to this)

rebuttal
[info]destinyschilde
2003-12-08 02:03 pm UTC (link)
and so on.....

"What poses a thornier question is this flock of supporters that William the Bloody appears to have amassed out of whole cloth. It's certainly not without precedent; serial killers from Theo Durrant to Ted Bundy have attracted scores of female admirers. A psychologist with far more insight than I would no doubt be able to elucidate the reasons for why so many women are drawn to men with violent, psychopathic tendencies; what's patently obvious is that these women have latched on to something that exists only in their mind. As they will never meet Spike, he's a safe fantasy figure for them to project their own desires on, without having to contend with the day-to-day realities that comes with living alongside your average mass murderer. While they go to great lengths to lavish such affection on him, what they don't realize is that they're actually doing him a disservice by blindly forgiving him all his transgressions. If they really want him to be as good a man as they proclaim him to be, they'd hold him accountable for his misdeeds instead of blindly waving them away. As it is, one has to wonder if Spike would retain such a groundswell of support if he were a bespectacled middle-aged man with a pot belly and male pattern baldness. I'm a bit skeptical of it."

You like to stir the pot, don't you? :)

Angel is not without his own "flock", believe me. In fact, from what I observe, women seem to go into a typical 'flirty' or sexual inuendo mode when he is around. What really puzzled me was how many females were attracted to him as Angelus. Now there was the stereotypical 'bad boy' that just drew the masses.

This comment of yours: "While they go to great lengths to lavish such affection on him, what they don't realize is that they're actually doing him a disservice by blindly forgiving him all his transgressions. If they really want him to be as good a man as they proclaim him to be, they'd hold him accountable for his misdeeds instead of blindly waving them away."
Could I just point out that through out this entire commentary of yours that it appears you are doing that exact same thing for Angel?
Neither one of them deserves to have thier misdeeds 'blindly waved away', and in truth, I don't think that most of thier devotees do that. You do however, have to look at the situation as a whole.
Redemption is a powerful word. I think most people in this world can relate to it on personal levels. Which is what makes both Angel and Spike's journey so compelling. To see someone, whom most would think beyond forgiveness and redemption, *trying* to take that path, and in fact, fighting thier very natures to do it, is something that draws people. Especially those of the female gender since they seem to be more socially attuned to walking in the feelings of others. They have more empathy. Females are socially groomed (and perhaps genetically prone) to be more...forgiving? Touched by emotion? To wear thier emotions on thier sleeves? Hence the large female contingents, that both Spike and Angel have, that 'got thier backs'. :) They WANT to see thier heros succeed. They want the underdog to win. They want to see that you can fight that cosmic city hall. They want to see that forgiveness and redemption are possible.
Both Spike and Angel are, as you state, serial killers. The fact that Angels killings stopped years ago, and Spikes only recently, in no way detracts from that. I really don't think that 'when' plays a factor in the actual "I did it". It happened. period.

to be continued in the final comment..

Destiny

(Reply to this)

rebuttal
[info]destinyschilde
2003-12-08 02:03 pm UTC (link)
In closing.....

Your insistence upon referring to Spike as 'William the Bloody' is telling, using both that term and 'Spike' in the present day text. Yet I don't see where you refer to Angel as 'Angelus' in the present term. Why is that? Do you believe that Angel and Angelus are separate entities? And, if that is so, then do you not also consider that Spike and Williams are also separate? That the soul makes the difference between the demon and the man? A very defined difference? If, with a soul, Angel is not Angelus, then the same holds true that William is not Spike? Wouldn't that follow logic?
Yet...it seems that that is not the case. Spike IS William IS William the Bloody. All together, wrapped up in the same package. Spike does not and never has, referred to himself as seperate entities. So should the same not hold true for Angel IS Liam IS Angelus?
I guess that is a subject for another day. :)

An interesting hour spent with this. I thank you for the opportunity to address my thoughts regarding your comments. :)

Regards,

Destiny



(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: rebuttal - [info]janeway216, 2003-12-11 08:42 pm UTC
Re: rebuttal - [info]destinyschilde, 2003-12-14 07:40 pm UTC
Re: rebuttal - [info]janeway216, 2003-12-14 08:14 pm UTC
Re: rebuttal - [info]_callmelanky_, 2003-12-15 01:01 am UTC