Wesley Wyndham-Pryce ([info]wyndham__pryce) wrote,
@ 2004-03-03 22:19:00
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Current mood:I don't grasp your meaning.

Of the many absurdities I've encountered in the past twenty-four hours, the supreme one has to be that a short while ago, I was speaking of hope. Try as I might, the only one of those I can summon forth is that I may have gone completely mad.

I keep coming back to the same image. I'm unable to shake it; it stays in my mind, an idee fixe. I picture it, unlikely enough, as some quasi-phantom form, a wisp of cloud or smoke that bears her general outline. Perhaps even part of her face is visible. As I imagine it, I see it licked, and finally consumed, with flames. Ridiculous Biblical tableau.

Her soul. Eradicated, for all eternity. She's been robbed of whatever perpetual existence follows this one, and is now destined to experience nothing but infinite oblivion.

I envy her.


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[info]inlovewithnight
2004-03-04 04:42 am UTC (link)
At least...and I understand this is no comfort whatsoever...at least it means Wolfram & Hart didn't get their hands on her soul. If there was a subclause somewhere in the contracts that gave it to them, she'd be working/burning away in Hell right now instead of just...not being.
Yeah, that didn't help at all, did it. :(

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[info]wyndham__pryce
2004-03-04 09:03 pm UTC (link)
No, it's a fair point.

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[info]soulvamp
2004-03-04 06:09 am UTC (link)
Her soul. Eradicated, for all eternity. She's been robbed of whatever perpetual existence follows this one, and is now destined to experience nothing but infinite oblivion.

I still say that's not necessarily so, mate. We could suss it out.

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[info]taco_geek
2004-03-04 06:45 am UTC (link)
No you can't. It's gone. It no longer exists. It is almost as though she never was.

Stop trying.

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[info]soulvamp
2004-03-04 06:50 am UTC (link)
Bollocks. And didn't I tell you to piss off, you sad little "X-Men" reject?

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Illyia
(Anonymous)
2004-03-04 07:26 am UTC (link)
Wow, she is exciting to watch isn't she?

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[info]strawberyslayer
2004-03-04 10:38 pm UTC (link)
Reverse psychology, perhaps? *Stop trying.* So...try? And like Spike was ever one to do what some lame-ass hair-dyed punk-wannabe chick tells him.

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-04 06:50 am UTC (link)
You can't chase her! She's not evil! She just want to learn!

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-04 11:25 pm UTC (link)
You're quite right, Spike. Amongst the consequences of the Platonic doctrine that evil is no more than a 'privatio boni,' an absence of good, is that everything that really exists is essentially good, and that evil, having no real existence of its own, can only exist by stealing from good (just as Illyria had to steal Fred's body). A further consequence is that non-existent evil can only eradicate existing good by using good to do it - which is, finally, a no-win situation for evil. If Wesley were in any condition to think straight right now, he would probably have remembered this. Now, good is naturally resistant to the eradication of good! - and, if Fred held out through five years in Pylea, it's not likely that she would give up and let her most essential self, her soul, be eradicated in this short time. She should still be around - somewhere - and if she is, she can be rescued.

If Illyria says anything to the contrary - well, how believable is the word of an evil demon?

-Edward.

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[info]wyndham__pryce
2004-03-05 03:28 am UTC (link)
Actually, I believe just the opposite. I think human goodness is anything but innate.

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-05 04:16 am UTC (link)
If we're talking about human moral qualities, then, certainly, all human beings are infected with evil, which is according to the doctrine of original sin. If the Platonists are right, however (and I'm thinking especially of Boethius here), then there is a good which is synonymous with existence itself, which is inherent in everything -whether human, animate or inanimate - and which Fred's soul must possess as surely as anything. Wherever she is, she still IS, somehow, somewhere - and there must be a way to find her and bring her back.

I'm not trying to be a foolish optimist. The situation is certainly dire. But it is not beyond hope.

-Edward.

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Ahrimanic!
[info]dunots
2004-03-06 06:33 am UTC (link)
What you say smacks of Zoroastrianism. I'm not sure how ell-versed you are in it (though I am sure Wesley is a hundred times more knowledgeable than I), but the idea that evil can only exist by co-opting good creations is a concept fundamental to the later incarnations of the faith. Now, the unusual thing is that in the original teachings by Zarathustra, it was more than just suggested that Angra Mainyu was able to create its own menog creations, which is later contradicted for a somewhat more optimistic (in a manner of speaking) view on the self-destructive tendencies of evil. I find it interesting that the older version is that with more power in the Ahrimanic...

In any event, the point that is consistently the reason that Ahura Mazda will definitely be victorious is his foreknowledge of that and other facts, something which evil lacks. Angra Mainyu can only imitate and react, while good has a plan, and foresight, an eerily recurrent theme, even in these supposed Powers That Be.

Of course, on the other hand, knowing ol' Blue Eyes, Illyria probably knew Angra Mainyu back when he was just a little Ahri-boy.

-Forrest "Excuse the pun" Walker

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Re: Ahrimanic!
(Anonymous)
2004-03-08 05:55 am UTC (link)
What you say is interesting. I'm not all that well-versed in Zoroastrianism; I've always understood it to be a form of pure Dualism, which would certainly not be consistent with the doctrines of the Platonists. However, if later developments modified this in the direction you indicate, there may well have come to be something in common between the two systems - which raises the question: might this owe something to the influence of Hellenistic thought in the post-Alexander period? I wish I knew a little more about this area, but there are only so many reading hours in the day ...

-Edward.

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Re: Ahrimanic!
[info]dunots
2004-03-08 08:50 am UTC (link)
No, it does. Well, in the later versions, at least. It was in the macedonic areas that a lot of the later mythos came to be added. The original, slightly more dualistic version was from a healthy 1,400 BCE.

It has been discussed that these schools of thought were related, and it's probably true, though the biggest influence on Zoroastrianism was the Vedic culture.

Anyway, hopefully this will somehow support he idea that good wins out, though it may have a hard road.

-DUNOTS

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-08 11:49 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. The important thing now is that, however hard the road, there's hope for Fred.

-Edward.

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-04 06:15 am UTC (link)
We all missed her. But, at least, Illyria doesn't seem so evil after all. She just seem lost. And she asked you for help. You're gonna teach her how to find her way, what's right and what's wrong. Honestly Wes, I don't know what to think and what to feel...I'm sad for Fred, I feel pity for Illyria. Maybe she didn't mean to do that to Fred. Maybe she needed a body and she didn't knew what she was doing. When she touched her sarcophagus and saw Fred's memories she seems amazed and sad. She's a lost creature from an old age. Maybe you're the only one who can teach her about life and the wonderful things of this world. Maybe because of you she'll learn to bond with people and she'll like humans. Demons are not all evil. Lorne is an example. I just hope your friends will not try to kill her.

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-04 07:30 am UTC (link)
So, Illyria is a demon animating the corpse of a human woman, possessing her memories but not her human soul. That sounds.... well, rather like Harmony, actually. She's soulless, yet is managing to be a productive member of your team, as Spike was for Buffy's team in the two years previous to regaining his soul.

Just saying that even if Fred's soul never returns to her body, there still might be something there worth saving. An echo of Fred, as it were, that may guide the demon towards a better purpose.

And hey, blue hair and a red leather catsuit. Sort of a combination Punk/Goth look. Very trendy. She could get you into any good nightclub in Hollywood or the Westside.

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[info]dirty_grrl
2004-03-04 12:23 pm UTC (link)
...

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[info]2002mini
2004-03-04 12:52 pm UTC (link)
Don't get too envious, it smacks of the suicidal..

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[info]barbalurina
2004-04-21 08:45 pm UTC (link)
Hi,
You don't know me, but I was wondering if you were ever going to post again. Being drunk and depressed never stopped anyone.....

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On the other hand...
[info]patspen
2004-04-27 01:25 am UTC (link)
What real evidence do you have of Illyria's claim that Fred's soul was consumed? And, given that it is Illyria's claim and no one else's, can it be trusted?

Illyria resides in a host body. If the soul was NOT consumed, presumably, your goal would be to restore the soul. In so doing, you would have to expel Illyria.

Why WOULDN'T she tell you it was impossible?

You have NO corroborating evidence for this theory, but lots of evidence against it. I would cite Angel. Killed by Darla in the creation of Angelus. Cursed by gypsies with...his soul.

Should I point out Spike? Who obtained his own soul back from a demon?

And what about that old "trafficking in human souls" routine that hell (and it's denizens) supposedly are so fond of? If souls were so easily destroyed, would they be so valuable? Or so easily obtained?

I think there's a wealth of evidence that Fred's soul is out there somewhere. And Fred's body is still animate, no decay, etc. O.k. a little blue around the edges, but otherwise it seems to be in good shape.

I think an Orb of Thessulah is needed here. And a certain ex-Sunnydalian (when she gets back from cooling her heels in other planes of existance...and whatever else she might be doing).

Madelein L'Engel once wrote that her definition of sin is despair. Stop with the sinning, Wes. Fred deserves better.

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Fred is gone and Illyria is not a treath with Wesley around, so leave her alone!
(Anonymous)
2004-04-27 06:03 am UTC (link)
Fred's body has been harden into a shell and all her organs has been melt. If there is a way to restore her soul she'll suffer for the rest of well...eternity. It's not like Spike or Angel. Their body wasn't damage or practically destroyed from the inside. The demon use a human body concerning vampires. But it doesn't destroy any organ. Only the heart is not beating. Besides, you can't compare a vampire possession with a demon goddess. Fred can't be restored to suffer for all eternity. She's better where she is.

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Re: Fred is gone and Illyria is not a treath with Wesley around, so leave her alone!
[info]patspen
2004-05-02 11:50 pm UTC (link)
Darla was DUSTED and brought back to life.

Angel was DEAD and his soul was restored. Likewise with Spike. I'm thinking if Illyria can walk and talk in a "hardened" body, Fred might be able to as well.

And Illyria is a threat so long as she possesses ANY powers. Her ability to time shift only weakens her, it doesn't "disarm" her. She's a wild card with an ego the size of the Milky Way. Not a good combination. With Wesley around, she's still a threat, because Wesley isn't Mr. Stability anymore, unless you missed that.

She may only be "playing" him while she still needs him. I'm not as sanguine as you that Illyria is on the team of the righteous.

And Fred? Didn't deserve what happened to her. REALLY didn't. And she didn't CHOOSE to die. So why choose to give up on her?

Just a suggestion.

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